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We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art.

GM Tiarum, GM "Pride Inc" (pvp), AD|DC (EU), Trueflame, cp531+
Tiara Raise - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 42
Tiara Ra - альтмер, DK, vamp, AR 31
Tia Ra - альтмер, sorc, vamp, AR 7
Tiara Moneta -  альтмер, NB, vamp, AR 4
Tia Dra - редгард,  stamDK, ww, AR 5
Tiara Ray - имперец,  BS-tankplar, vamp, AR 6
Charity Iceborn (DC-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 16
Rayna Sunlight (EP-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 7
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Re: Башни
« Ответ #1 : 22 Март, 2011, 14:36:22 »

На случай, если обсуждение там пропадет, продублирую тут:
Greetings my fellow Tes fans. One of the most trademark things about Tes lore, when you really get into it, is CHIM. This can also be one of the most difficult things for those new to Tes to understand, due in no small part to the lingo many lore buffs use. Now, I am all for letting people figure things out on their own, but sometimes it's good to have something to look towards for help. I don't claim to be an expert, or even any kind of decent with Tes lore, but I think I can put it in a way just about anyone with a decent knowledge of Tes can understand.

However, if you want to search through the Sermons of Vivec and other sources, and figure it all out for yourself, stop here. That is most of the fun anyways 

The first thing you have to know in order to understand CHIM are the metaphors that come with the thirty six lessons of Vivec.

Notably, sermon number twenty one, which states:
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The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'

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'The spaces between the gift-limbs number sixteen, the signal shapes of the Demon Princedoms. It is the key and the lock, series and manticore.'

The Wheel symbolizes everything that exists, or Aurbis, the eight spokes being the Aedra, the sixteen spaces between the spokes the Daedra, and the hub at the center is Nirn(also Lorkhan, which is Talos). Mundus is the hub and the spokes, Nirn and the Aedra, while Oblivion is the spaces between the spokes, the various realms of the Daedric Princes.

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'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'

Take a wheel, turn it sideways, and it looks like an I. That I is the Tower, the Tower is the wheel, and the wheel is everything that exists.

The Ehlnofey, the original race that inhabited Nirn while it was still a single landmass (like Pangea), knew CHIM well, they even had a rune for it. Now, their language cannot be read by current mortals, as the glyphs change shape and all kinds of weird stuff when looked at. However, those scholars that could read the glyph for CHIM, even for just a moment, saw it as a crowned Tower, that threatened to break at the slightest lapse in concentration.

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'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'


'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'


'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'

The triangular gate represents CHIM, the Tower's secret, the I within the I of the Tower. Now, if the Tower is all creation, the secret of the Tower is the secret of Aurbis. The secret of Aurbis (all creation) is CHIM.

Here is a very insightful quote from MK:

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What is the Tower?

The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self, and is embodied by the fourth constellation, and is guarded by the Thief, the third. The Thief is another metaphorical absolute; in this case, he represents the “taking of the Tower” or, and sometimes more importantly, the “taking” of the Tower’s secret.

What is the Tower’s secret?
How to permanently exist beyond duplexity, antithesis, or trouble. This is not an easy concept, I know. Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say “I”. The “I” is the Tower.

What created the Tower?
The Wheel created it. The Wheel is the structure of this universe, and it is easiest to see it that way: rim, spokes, hub, and all the spaces within and without. I shall take each in turn.

What created the Wheel?
Anu and Padhome, stasis and change, both vast realms sitting in the void, they created it. Not vast, infinite, as the void was infinite. Imagine an infinity enclosed by another; you come away with a bubble. Now watch as the two bubbles touch. Their intersection is a perfect circle of pattern and possibility that we shall call the Aurbis. The Aurbis is the foundation of the Wheel.

What are the spaces within and without of the Wheel?
Outside the wheel is the void, bereft of anything. It cannot be named. If it has more aspects than stasis and change, they are outside of true language. Inside of the Wheel is the Aurbis, as I have explained.

What is the rim of the Wheel?
As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

What is the hub of the Wheel?
We are the hub, the Mundus that goes by many names. We are the heart of all creation. What does this mean? Why should we care? Lorkhan created it so that we could find what he did. In fact, and here is the secret: the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see. Stand in its flux and remain whole of mind. Look at it sideways and see the “I”.

This is the Tower.

Quoted from Luagar:
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The Tower is the ideal, something to be attained, something to be conquered - it is a daunting and threatening fortification. The "I" is the Tower, the "I" is the thing that must be reckoned with or conquered or stolen in order to attain CHIM. When you achieve CHIM that fortification is no longer so daunting, you've stolen its secret and "reside within" - in siege terms you've "taken the Tower".

Note that Vivec is the Theif, and that Vivec achieved CHIM.

When you achieve CHIM you reside within the Tower, you are free from the craziness of mortal life, you live inside the Wheel.

Now, when speaking of the powers of CHIM, we must bring the Godhead into play. The Godhead is the supreme power in the Elder Scrolls universe, though no one there knows of his existence. All of Aurbis, Anu, and Padomay are merely his dream. He is dreaming up the entire world of Tes, and everything in it is a part of him.

To achieve CHIM is to realize this, to recognize the Godhead, to see that everything is him, that you are him, and still maintaining your individuality. You are still able to say I, and thus you have achieved CHIM. In knowing that everything is merely an extension of the same thing, an extension of you, you have power over it in the same way you can move your arm. It is like a little part of the Godhead having a lucid dream, where he is still dreaming though he knows he is dreaming and thus has control over the dream.

The only reason those that achieve CHIM haven't enslaved the whole world (Vivec) is because they know it is pointless, as they already are the world. Everyone and everything is them: past, present, and future. In theory they have limitless power, though they no longer have any desire to use it.

If you take the secret of the Tower, but you lose that I, you zero sum, and disappear. You cease to exist, as if the little part of the Godhead's dream that is you woke up entirely. When the Godhead wakes up everything will zero sum, and Tes will cease to exist at all.

Now, this is just a small part of all the interconnected perplexity that is Tes lore. And as of now, this is all I understand in the slightest. I am probably mistaken on several accounts, but really if you are reading this to figure out what CHIM is, you should try and find it for yourself first.

There are many things left unsaid, but I hope this has helped some people understand better what all the nonsense is. Thank you

So following this, anyone could become a god?

Technically, but that's not all there is to it. You can't just say you understand it, you have to believe it. Most people in Tes wouldn't be able to wrap their heads around the concept of the Tower, it's a lot harder when it's your actual world you're talking about. Imagine if I started levitating in front of you, and told you all you need to do in order to levitate is accept that everything you know about science and religion is wrong. Because in Tes the gods are there, so there is much less debate about whether God exists.

Technically Vivec could go around telling people this straight up, instead of hinting at it in his sermons, but there's a very small chance anyone he talks to would be able to understand it, nonetheless avoid zero summing.

His twenty first sermon, the one that speaks of the Tower, is not something everyone has, in game you only find it in Ghost Gate and the temple at Gnisis.

Even so, it'd still be as difficult to accept as if someone fully embraced everything the bible said, even the most obscure parts. And even then there is a 99% chance they'll go crazy and disappear. And the bible isn't even a good metaphor for the sermons, it'd be more like the book of Revelation (please no religious debates here).

The whole thing with CHIM and the Godhead freaks me out, entertains me, and pisses me off.

It freaks me out, because it makes me think that OUR universe could be like this, and the Godhead could wake up at any moment, and that's it. Also, any one of my friends could zero-sum at any moment, and I would be none the wiser.

It entertains me because it is really interesting, and provides a lot of material to think about and occupy my time with.

And it pisses me off because it makes me realize that nothing I do in TES matters (not that it would anyway). I mean, technically it doesn't matter because only what Bethesda says happened happens, but it doesn't matter because it's all JUST A DREAM. Screw that, man.

Anyway, does anyone know what happens when someone zero-sums? Do they just disappear, and everyone wonders where they went, or are erased from time or something?

Well, zero sum has had some heated discussions of its own, as it is not simply what happens if you venture too far into the Tower but can't get CHIM, or when you realize you are a part of everything and everything is you and at this point lose the ability to retain your status as an individual.

CHIM is not an achievement, it is, as Proweler puts it, a knowledge. This knowledge protects you from zero summing, it is not something to be attained by keeping yourself from zero summing, rather it is something you gain to keep yourself from 0 summing.

Here's an insightful thread on the subject: Where 946000 is just as lost as the rest of us 

Furthermore, what causes you to zero sum, more specifically than knowing you are a part of the godhead, is knowing that everything that exists is created by the interplay of Anu and Padomay (Is and Is Not). Anu Is 1, while Padomay Is Not and therefore would be the opposite of 1, being -1. However, when these two combine to form the gray maybe that is Aurbis, it is adding 1 + -1. Zero summing is when you realize this, you realize that the solution is zero, and thus everything that exists is zero. You do not exist, basically. When you figure this out, you zero sum, and cease to exist. You are what you believe you are, that's the whole idea of CHIM.

Now, you attain CHIM when you realize that everything is 0, yet you can still look at it all and, as Weird put it:

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being able to shout "I AM!" in the face of the whole universe shouting "You are not, I and I can prove it."

Keep in mind I don't claim any of this stuff as my idea, I took everything I put here straight from the great lore buffs at BGSF. You can figure all this out just by reading a couple of the posts over there, trust me. You just have to look past all the lore buffs obscure jokes and figure out the truth, so you can start confusing newbies 

Of course, figuring it out is such great fun that you really shouldn't be reading this except as a last resort.

So suppose I realize all that, but believe in Descartes' principle of "I think, therefore I am," I would be kept from zero summing since I still believe that I exist, regardless of the evidence against me?

First of all, as wonderful as Descartes is, "Cogito ergo sum" changes meaning when you are nothing. It's not that the world is your dream, it's that your world is someone elses dream

The thing is, you now think everything the godhead thinks, and everything everyone thinks. It's facing the fact that you are everything, but everything is nothing, in the most literal sense.

When you can no longer even be certain that you think, you have entered the Tower

All the factual information, the infallible logic of 1-1=0, is on the side of zero summing. It's not so much ignoring that, you can't make something go away by being ignorant to it, but being able to face something and telling it that it does not exist, though even logic tells you it does. Although, in this case, it would be having to face that you do not exist, and being able to tell yourself that you do.

So, technically, if you can still manage to believe that you are, despite everything pointing to you not being, you attain CHIM. That's why so many people have tried and failed, if you actively try and seek CHIM, and realize all this, you will inevitably have convinced yourself that it is true and not be able to deny it. You must attain this knowledge without trying to attain it (not saying that you have to stumble on it by chance. Read the Trial of Vivec, it's a bit complicated but he does use CHIM in it)

As to the trial of Vivec, this is the passage I am talking about:

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Vivec: "Rude spirit, you should never have come. Not here. Not to the world of the liars, where your power is fleshed to law, bound by the bones of the compromise. Shallow changer, whorescamp, say you that you rule dusk and dawn? Let me show you the power of the true Dawn, when Gods walked."


Vivec: "I am the Thief of this World, with stars, and by my Charges I put you down."

A shadow leaves Vivec, snapping off him to wrap around the Daedric Prince, cracking the air as it stiffens.

Vivec: "With my Charges I put you down. By this Shadow, I call your neonymic forth, your chosen throne, sundown and sunrise, death and birth of shadow. You are bound to this place."


Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."

To add to my last post, here is an example of what I mean by not ignoring the truth, but still being able to deny it. Once again I quote Luagar:

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"Your imagination and your willpower are the keys. There is no need for a spell to give you a resistance to air, or a resistance to flowers, and after you cast the charm, you must forget there is even a need for a spell to give you resistance to fire. Do not confuse what I am saying: resistance is not about ignoring the fire's reality. You will feel the substance of flame, the texture of it, its hunger, and even the heat of it, but you will know that it will not hurt or injure you... Fear does not break spells, but doubt and incompetence are the great enemies of any spellcaster- Sotha Sil"

You aren't ignoring the truth, you simply know that you exist. Not with logic, because logic is on the side of zero summing, but also not with ignorance. Knowledge without truth is faith, and faith is love.

Love is the key to retaining the I despite the 1 + -1 = 0. Hence the Loveletter

That makes sense. Sorta... but I see what you mean. If you know that nothing is(/should be) real, you can't know that you are real through your thoughts.

Ah, love and CHIM. To quote a Midsummer Night's Dream:
"To say the truth, reason and love keep little company together nowadays."

There is a difference between love and Love; you know that, right?

Yeah, but the quote still applies rather well.

Eh, that's the point where I stop understanding stuff. It was a hesitant statement, in hopes someone would come in and correct me without making me ask the question directly. I've not yet read the loveletter, though I should have, so that's probably the reason. I'm pretty bad at looking at texts, I just read the sermons a few weeks ago

Yes! Lore forum advertising succesful!

I wasn't poking fun at you, 946000, I was just mentioning that you were the one who made the thread, and pointing out how you now understand CHIM better than most of us. Though I'm guessing by the  that you already guessed that.

If anyone would like to discuss here I would love to understand it all better. Everything in that "guide" is taken straight from other people, my understanding isn't enough to make that all up myself

Here's a question for you, more of a quote that I would like to expand on really:
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The Tower is an ideal, which, in our world of myth and magic, means that it is so real that it becomes dangerous. It is the existence of the True Self within the Universal Self, and is embodied by the fourth constellation, and is guarded by the Thief, the third. The Thief is another metaphorical absolute; in this case, he represents the “taking of the Tower” or, and sometimes more importantly, the “taking” of the Tower’s secret.

So, if the Tower is just an idea, a metaphor for the whole of Aurbis, then the only reason it can manifest itself in something like CHIM is because Nirn is a world of "myth and magic". Would that mean that magic, which is really just the remains of Magnus, is essential to the idea of the Tower?

My first inclination would be to call the true self the mind, and the universal self the Godhead, thus would we say that the Tower is mortals within the Godhead? Or would you say the true self is simply Aurbis, making the wheel, which within the Godhead makes the Tower?

So the Tower is represented by the fourth constellation, is this simply coincidence that we find the image of the Tower within the stars, or is it people trying to find the Tower in the sky? Who made the constellations that they understood the Thief and the Tower?

No worries bro. I'm mighty flattered that you even think I'm knowledgeable on anything, let alone CHIM.
Conceringin your "myth and magic" statement, I'm gonna say that, to be honest, it seems like you may be thinking about that part of it too hard. But even as I say that, I will also say that seeing as Nirn is indeed a magic ball, this gives the mere idea of CHIM power.

Your True Self/Universal Self are the same thing. Hate to beat a dead horse, but you're the totality of existence and at the same time the most infinitesimal part of it; the divine dichotomy shows itself yet again. And concerning the Aurbis and Godhead, don't you remember that the only name of (the) God(head) is "I"? What is "I" again? While I feel that may look like a copout line, I feel it does answer your question.

I personally feel Vivec, being the poetic bastard he is, just used the constellation references for poetic license. Are you actually asking how the constellations were made? The 12 constellations minus the Serpent correspond to the 12 worlds of Nir, i.e. the cosmos before the 12 congealed into Nirn, the Serpent constellation. More than that I can't say

Anyone here agree this should be the theme song of chim?
! Private video

No. [censored] no. There is one song about CHIM, and I swear to God, it fits it perfectly.

Iron Maiden - For the Greater Good of God

We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art.

GM Tiarum, GM "Pride Inc" (pvp), AD|DC (EU), Trueflame, cp531+
Tiara Raise - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 42
Tiara Ra - альтмер, DK, vamp, AR 31
Tia Ra - альтмер, sorc, vamp, AR 7
Tiara Moneta -  альтмер, NB, vamp, AR 4
Tia Dra - редгард,  stamDK, ww, AR 5
Tiara Ray - имперец,  BS-tankplar, vamp, AR 6
Charity Iceborn (DC-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 16
Rayna Sunlight (EP-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 7
Награды Участникам бета-тестов TESO За кропотливую работу на форуме/вики

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Re: Башни
« Ответ #2 : 22 Март, 2011, 15:11:47 »
I suppose, but there's no way to figure it out than to ask. I don't know enough about magic or CHIM to make a reasonable assumption without hours of research, time I really don't have at this moment.

Would your true self and universal self still be the same if you did not have CHIM? I would figure that they would be different, though you can't exactly trust Vivec.

So if you are a part of God naturally, without CHIM, getting CHIM is when you realize that everything is a part of God, thus you are made of the same thought as everything, and in some weird way you are everything, being God? And thus since you are God, God is "I", and since everything is the Tower, and the Tower is I, the Tower is God. So God's secret is CHIM, realizing that you are I and I is you 

Ah, I was unaware of the constellations correspondance with these twelve "worlds". This is actually the first I've heard of Nirn being anything but what it was after creation. So these twelve worlds formed into Nirn, with Nirn being the Serpent?

On a separate question, does the Serpent have anything to do with the Yokudan creation myth?

 This is a serious discussion, so please keep the Beatles out of it. Besides, Maiden's old stuff was a hundred times better

No, this is a serious discussion. Also, their old stuff is just as good as their new stuff. :/

Really, listen to the song. The lyrics are all about CHIM and Love.

The lyrics seem more focused on religion and the various wars and crusades it has caused, saying why we can't all love each other. It's a familiar concept for a song, but I think it applies to war more than CHIM.

Regardless, this isn't a musical or religious discussion, though I don't really mind. I'm no moderator, afterall, but I'd like to keep things more focused on CHIM itself rather than what represents it or not. Sorry.

If you're going to talk about CHIM that's all nice and dandy, but please stay on topic. The Lore forum at BGSF is full of crap that really has nothing to do with lore. We're not going down that road. Not to say the songs aren't serious, but that's not what this thread is for. I realize, though, that apparently at least one of the song is seriously about CHIM? I don't know, I'm confused...

Haha, man, you don't get it. Ahhh, it's ok. The lyrics are about CHIM, dude.

'Love is under your will only.'

'Please tell me now what Love is.'

'For The Greater Good Of God.'

Because the True/Universal self idea requires seeing the Tower, if you don't see the Tower, then such an idea wouldn't even enter your head.

Concerning your God statements, yes.

Concerning constellations, Nirn was Nir before creation. It became Nirn after creation.

Why yes the Serpent does have something to do with Yokudan myth:

     "While the rest of the new world was allowed to strive back to godhood, Sep could only slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."

This "hungry void" is the constellation of unstars: the Serpent, one of the forms that Lorkhan can take now. The other "dead skin" is the Underking.

I had only just read the Yokudan myth due to a question posed by Ironed Maidens, but I suppose that makes sense. I can see how the Yokudans would have revered Lorkhan. Now, does the term Yokudan only refer to the Redguards, or does it also include the left handed elves?

But hold on: Yokudans, i.e. Redguards from my understanding, didn't necessarily REVERE Lorkhan. He WAS punished after all; the "hunger" he inherited from Satakal drove him mad as he and his constituents tried to make an easier Walkabout, that is, try apotheosis.

The Serpent itself, according to their myths, tries to stop mortal souls from reaching the Far Shores.

Only...the Far Shores is a strict Nord manifesto.
Un-Stars, the recycled bits of Aether, and of previous Kalpas.
Ooooh damn, looks like The Rudy Man wasn't so Rudy after all.

Ehhh, no its not. From the Yokudan Myth:

"They called this process the Walkabout, a way of striding between the worldskins. Ruptga was so big that he was able to place the stars in the sky so that weaker spirits might find their way easier. This practice became so easy for the spirits that it became a place, called the Far Shores, a time of waiting until the next skin."

From Varieties of Faith, concerning Sep:

"Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions, but his hunger lives on as a void in the stars, a 'non-space' that tries to upset mortal entry into the Far Shores."

Hooray! We finally have another CHIM discussion at BGSF, so I think I'll update this guide with some of the wisdom given there by our gracious lore-masters  The topic is why Vivec and other attainers of CHIM even bother with Nirn, knowing that they are a part of the Godhead and everything in it.

From Dumb Kid:
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Somehow everyone always forgets that the godhead is what is coming. CHIM is a move in that direction.

“This should be seen as an opportunity, and in no way tedious, though some will give up for it is easier to kiss the lover than become one.”

Here we come to the Scripture’s greatest resignation: to imagine the subcreation AFTER mortal death, which by pattern would mean an echo of Mundus, and through this imagining, the failures of so many.

The Digitals' record of the Lunar God’s involvement in all of this is called the Great Pain: “The Lunar God failed by his own devices, to show the new progeny how they might not.”

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

Simply put, as the Gods cannot know joy as mortals, their creation, so mortals may only understand the joy of Liberty by becoming the progenitors of the models that can make the jump past mortal death.

And so many of you give up.

Mortal Death to Z (Z being the state-gradient echo of Mundus Centerex): antinymic to [untranslatable].

“The lower regions crawl with these souls, caves of shallow treasures, meeting in places to testify by way of extension, when love is only satisfied by a considerable (incalculable) effort.”

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

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Attaining CHIM does not in any way entail that all your efforts are ultimately pointless. You're initial assumption is mistaken.

CHIM is overcoming the restrictions of this world, so as to be able to become/give birth to the godhead, who in turn becomes/gives birth to a whole world of I.

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CHIM is not identity with the godhead. CHIM is fully realizing your individuality, and thus being free of the restrictions of the Aurbis - that is, free from the convention. Attaining CHIM puts you in a position to become/give birth to the godhead.

That point should be emphasized. When you become amaranth you are not a part of the godhead, you become the godhead, and everything in your world is a part of you. Your actions are quite the opposite of ultimately pointless.

Oh, and there can be multiple godheads.

Those who do not fail become the New Men: an individual beyond all AE, unerased and all-being. Jumping beyond the last bridge of all existence is the Last Existence, The Eternal I.

Note the plural. Each godhead dreams their own world.

Great stuff, all in all. The final quote is my favorite, as it elaborates on Vehk's Teachings, a condensed guide to all things awesome  Hopefully more updates are on their way, and a final thanks to Dumbkid for the great info

That's helpful. I never really understood why they still bothered with Nirn. What do they mean when they say "there can be multiple godheads," though?


Anyway, there are much more knowledgeable people in the still-going-on thread at BGSF for those of you interested. I can only give speculative, mostly BS answers

However, I will try my darndest to think up an answer for you, Vanir.

My first assumption would be that they each have their own Aurbis, as indicated by his last phrase "each godhead dreams their own world". Meaning that they are all dreaming their own lives independent from one another. I would hope that their dreams don't cross or otherwise connect, else they might wake up, so I'm going to say that everyone that has achieved CHIM makes up his own little universe. Talos has one, Vivec has one, etc. I'm not sure which Aurbis is the Aurbis from the games, as in the official canon Aurbis, but I'm going to vote for Vivec's

Hope that helps

PS Thanks for taking an interest.

But if Talos had his own universe, he wouldn't be able to manifest himself on Nirn, right?

Not what I meant, I'm afraid. The Nirn we know is the product of a godhead's imagination. We don't know which one it is; for all we know the godhead might not even manifest himself within his dream. Which means that Vivec and Talos (if their CHIMness isn't just figments of the godhead's imagination as well) exist in their own seperate Aurbis-es, dreaming their own dreams.

While we still have representation of them on our Nirn, this does not mean that they are the same as they were before they broke out of the godhead's dream. After achieving CHIM they might well have left our dream for their own, or taken over our dream, or somehow had some control over our dream.

Think of it like this, you are familiar with multiverse theory, correct? If not, this should briefly explain for the purpose of the metaphor.

So, each godhead's (achiever of CHIM) dream is its own universe, separate from our own. Our own universe is a dream, but we do not know the dreamer. We can only assume that our dreamer has not dreamed of other dreamers achieving CHIM; basically there is a chance that Vivec is as fictional as the rest of us and he never broke free and dreamed his own dream. However, I prefer to assume that Vivec did break free and began dreaming his own dream, becoming a godhead of his own universe. He (and Talos) would only continue to exist in our dream as our dreamer dreams them; meaning that while they are dreaming their own dreams, a different them is still stuck in our dream, albeit with certain dreamer powers stemming from their CHIMness.

While he does have his own universe, he still existed on Nirn as a part of our universe as a different him. Or perhaps it is the same him, dreaming while he is dreamed, creating a chain of dreamers. Who knows? I'll go with the most complicated explanation, because of the Tes rule of BATF (boring and therefore wrong).

Please note that this is all speculation, ask Dumb Kid for a better answer

Ah, that makes more sense. You see, it's the stuff like this that makes me love TES so much. I wouldn't like it nearly as much as I do if it didn't have such deep lore and crazy things like this.

The Godheads are focal points in the universe (a universe of layers, there was a point where the whole world Nirn was just kinda mashed together wasnt there so maybe it started there) the whole world and even time itself twists around them like a blackhole and the universe finally collapses in on them and fills up the whole that was them (Warp in the West) after they have played out the multiple/infinite/maybe some # to do with binary/maybe the mechanism of the world-universe-Nirn-Aubis turning on its spokes

The dreams/realities are not entirely in vain their importance is just lessened as they are absorbed and flattened into each other until they reach a rather ambiguous state

You must not look at TES as a game but a universe, you must always try to turn it into a mysticism explanation

its not 1's and 0's but spokes on a wheel

When Vivec rose he killed a Godhead not a guy with a controller

Or at least ill keep on beleivin that so long as my immersion isnt broken

if they end Elder Scroll X with your character seein through the matrix and zero summing the whole TES and all of its lore and wakin up in a boring real world apartment i will rage

The Towers and the Barrier; A lore introduction to an RP

Greetings my fan union friends. Over at Bethsoft I have very recently created my first RP, and wanted to know what you all thought of the lore. I am a little shaky when it comes to the Towers, but in my research I think I have most of it worked out, with many thanks to the two texts I quoted in this passage:

"Ours is the duty to keep the compromise from being filled with black sea."

Overall plot of the RP:

This is set to be only the first in a series of several RPs, centered around the mystery of the great Towers of Nirn and their mythical Stones. The Towers, before the Oblivion Crisis, were the only thing that maintained the barrier between Oblivion and Mundus, and the destruction of the Heart of Lorkhan coupled with the taking of the Amulet of Kings is what weakened this barrier and allowed Dagon to enter the mortal realm. Each Tower corresponds to a Stone, the focal point for its power, and each Stone is kept safe by a Guardian.

The first Tower, or should I say the Zero Tower, was Adamantine, the source of the Convention and vessel of Akatosh. The next Tower was Red Mountain, formed during the Convention when Lorkhan’s heart was shot across Tamriel. The order of the later Towers is uncertain, but the Towers constructed by the mer in the echo of the Zero Tower are the following: Green-Sap (Falinesti), Walk-Brass (Numidium), Crystal-like-Law (Crystal Tower), High Hrothgar, White Gold and, though it is destroyed, Orichalc (Yokuda). In the Nu-Mantia Intercept it is stated that there are eight towers on the rim and a single tower at the hub, the great mockery of Aurbis gave White Gold great power. But hold, there are only seven outlying towers mentioned (Adamantine, Red, Crystal, Green, Numidium, Hrothgar, and Orichalc), so what is the eighth? It has been said that the Khajiit’s deep connection with the Lunar Lattice, and the theory has been supported that they too are mer. Thus we can only come to the conclusion that the eight tower is in Elsweyr, and has deep connections with the cat folk and their moon sugar.

In “The Guardian Theory”, Nalion Leoriane theorizes that the Towers were only tools, and the Stones the method of using them, that these tools must be wielded by a Guardian that the Liminal Barrier might be maintained. With the absence of the last Guardians, Vivec and the Emperor, even those Towers that still had Stones could not keep Oblivion out of Nirn.

This is why the Oblivion Crisis occurred, why the Mythic Dawn could bring Dagon to Nirn, and one of the greatest wonders of Mundus. At the end of the Crisis, Martin gave himself up as the everlasting Guardian, altering the covenant between Alessia and Lorkhan/Akatosh that the Towers would be replaced by him and the great dragon statue at the Temple of the One.

Thus are the Towers, their secret going unnoticed by the masses of Tamriel, only the ancients and the most wise aware of their importance. But what if the dragon statue is broken? What if all the Guardians are not truly gone? What if someone were to gather all the remaining Stones, visit each Tower still standing, and break once more the barrier, and the jaws of Oblivion gape wide once more?

"Aad semblio impera, dela can carpio semblex."

~ Башня ~

[Этот урок был опубликован Майклом Киркбрайдом aka Vehk на ES Lore Forum]

[Примечание переводчика. Название документа "The Tower", что можно было перевести как Крепость, Башня, Цитадель, Оплот. Здесь мы выбрали слово "Башня", и выбор будет виден из дальнейшего.]

Этот отрывок представляет собой один особенно важный урок из числа тех, что Вивек преподал, путешествуя по дороге в Сиродил (The Road To Cyrodiil). Строки пронумерованы для удобства цитирования.

Вивек предварил этот урок словами "Я говорил об этом ранее..." и припомнил проповедь 21, в которой описаны многие из понятий данного урока

Что такое Башня?

1. Башня есть идеал, который, в нашем мире легенды и магии, означает, что он столь реален, что становится опасным.

2. Это существование Подлинного Себя внутри Универсального Себя, и материализовано четвертым созвездием, и охраняемо Вором, третьим.

3. Вор есть другой метафорический абсолют, здесь он представляет "захват Башни" или, что временами более важно, "захват" тайны Башни...

В чем тайна Башни?

4. Как вечно существовать вне двойственности, противопоставления или беспокойства.

5. Это не простое понятие, я знаю. Представьте себе возможность ощутить всеми своими чувствами безжалостный чуждый ужас, который есть Бог и твое вместилище, что везде и, следовательно, нигде, и осознание того, что это означает полное растворение твоей индивидуальности в безграничном бытии. Представь это и будь способен произнести "Я" ("I"). "Я" (или "I") и есть Башня.

Что создало Башню?

6. Колесо создало ее.

7. Колесо есть структура этой вселенной,  просто посмотрите: обод, спицы, втулка, и промежутки внутри и вне. Я рассмотрю все по очереди.

Что создало Колесо?

8. Ану и Падхоум, Устойчивость и Изменчивость, два громадных царства в пустоте, они и создали его.

9. Не огромное, но бесконечное, поскольку пустота бесконечна. Представьте одну бесконечность, вложенную в другую, вы получите сферу, или пузырь...

10. Теперь понаблюдайте касание двух сфер. Их пересечение дает идеальный круг системы и возможности, что мы назовем Аурбисом.

11. Аурбис и есть основа Колеса.

Что это за промежутки внутри и вне Колеса?

12. Вне Колеса пустота, лишенная чего-либо, вакуум. Она неназываема.

13. Если б и больше сторон, чем устойчивость и изменчивость, для них бы не нашлось слов в истинном языке.

14. Внутри Колеса – Аурбис, как я объяснил.

Что есть обод Колеса?

15. По мер продолжения процесса предсоздания оба, Ану и Падхоум, пробудились. Поскольку увидеть свою противоположность и есть окончательно проснуться.

16. Оба они породили свои души, Ауриэль и Ситис, и эти души коснулись Аурбиса каждый по-своему, и из этого возникли этАда, первичные плетения.

17. Эти этАда со временем приобрели форму.

18. Первенцем Ану, желавшим более всего порядка, было время, известное как Акатош.

19. Первенец Падхоума путешествовал с рождения, изменяя то, чего касался, и желал быть безымянным, но назван был Лорханом.

20. Пока течение времени позволяло все большему и большему числу плетений формироваться, Лорхан наблюдал, как Аурбис меняет себя и равно радуется и утомляется с каждым изменением.

21. В то время как боги и демоны Аурбиса возникали, ставленник Падхоума пытался оставить все это позади, поскольку он хотел все это и ничего из этого. Так он пришел к краю Аурбиса.

22. Он увидел Башню, поскольку круг оказался, повернут на сторону, и выглядел как "I". Это было первым словом Лорхана, и он никогда не забудет его.

Что есть спицы Колеса?

23. Веками этАда развивались, формировались и уничтожали друг друга и творения друг друга.

24. Некоторые были таким же, как Лорхан, и открыли пустоту  вне Аурбиса, хотя увидели ли они Башню, не знаю, но знаю, что если и увидели, то не оценили.

25. В любом случае, некоторые из тех, кто увидел пустоту, построили свои внутри Аурбиса, но каждая малая пустота искала другую. Пустота последует пустоте, этАда назвали это Обливион.

26. Оставшаяся часть Аурбиса была непрерывной, по-другому, известной как магия. ЭтАда назвали это Этериус.

27. Теперь Лорхан видел все, что было видимо, но не принял этого. Здесь были этАда с их магией и их пустотами и всем прочим, а он стремился вернуться к постоянному изменению, но в то же время не вынес бы потери себя.

28. Он не знал, чего жаждал, но знал, как построить это. Путем обмана:

"Мы сделали Аурбис неустойчивым из-за пустот"

и мудрости:

"Мы многомудры и сможем сотворить идеальный драгоценный камень на основе согласия"

и силы:

"Делай, что тебе говорю, невежественное существо"

он принудил некоторых из сильнейших этАда к сотворению Мира.

29. Спицы Колеса это восемь даров эйдра, сыновей и дочерей Этериуса.

30. Пустоты между спицами числом шестнадцать, и их повелители – сыновья и дочери Обливиона.

31. В центре Колеса расположен другой круг, втулка, которая и держит все вместе. ЭтАда назвали это Мундус.

Что есть втулка Колеса?

32. Мы есть втулка, Мундус имеет много имен.

33. Мы сердце всего творения.

34. Что это значит? Что нам беспокоиться? Лорхан создал это, и мы смогли получить плоды его творения.

35. В действительности, и здесь есть секрет: втулка есть отражение своих создателей, круг внутри круга, лишь край легко увидеть.

36. Стань в его потоке и задумайся. Взгляни на его сторону и увидишь "I". Это и есть Башня.

Перевод: Santera

Создала раздел в Песочнице под Башни на вики

Велотийские башни не менее (а может и более) древние вот, что написано в Before the Ages of Man:
During the Middle Merethic Era, Aldmeri explorers mapped the coasts of Vvardenfel, building the First Era High Elven wizard towers at Ald Redaynia, Bal Fell, Tel Aruhn, and Tel Mora in Morrowind.
Т.е. по большому счету эти "велотийские" башни нельзя назвать велотийскими (хотя я не исключаю, что они могли перестраиваться позже).
Из перечисленного лишь Альд Редайния ныне является велотийской башней (пока будем применять этот термин) - ни в Бал Фелле, ни тем паче в Тель Аруне/Море никаких их следов нет. Мне кажется, "high elven wizard towers" - это нечто другое, явно не такой архитектуры, потому что архитектура велотийских башен четко противовулканическая, а в ранней меретической эре Гора не извергалась. Вероятнее всего, эти wizard towers были разрушены первым извержением, и уже потом на их месте возникли Альд Редайния и башни Телванни. С Бал Феллом сложнее - тамошние руины явно дотрибунальского происхождения. Видимо, та башня была разрушена ранее.

Рядом с Тель Морой есть городок Вос построенный в велотийском стиле.
Впрочем я не буду утверждать, что велотийские башни были построены "первопроходцами-айледами".
Тем более, что там же мы читаем:
The Late Merethic Era marks the precipitous decline of Velothi culture. Some Velothi settled in villages near declining and abandoned ancient Velothi towers.
Вполне логично, что они использовали в своих более новых постройках ту же архитектуру, ведь по сути они были еще очень близки к своим сородичам.
We work in the dark - we do what we can - we give what we have. Our doubt is our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art.

GM Tiarum, GM "Pride Inc" (pvp), AD|DC (EU), Trueflame, cp531+
Tiara Raise - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 42
Tiara Ra - альтмер, DK, vamp, AR 31
Tia Ra - альтмер, sorc, vamp, AR 7
Tiara Moneta -  альтмер, NB, vamp, AR 4
Tia Dra - редгард,  stamDK, ww, AR 5
Tiara Ray - имперец,  BS-tankplar, vamp, AR 6
Charity Iceborn (DC-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 16
Rayna Sunlight (EP-side) - альтмер, Magplar, vamp, AR 7
Награды Участникам бета-тестов TESO За кропотливую работу на форуме/вики



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